Native Criticism of Lekay, and Some Nice Words of Support for Myself
From two wonderful proud Native ladies.
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=a26bd1e57b844c793a9ad99fc614b541&topic=1029.50
From Momma P:
To try and make Al's BQ [blood quantum] or the enrollment he has always been clear he does not have, the main issue , would seem to be nothing more than an effort to divert peoples attention away from the true issues , and to weaken support for the recognized authorities that are selected by Native communities , by weakening support for their supporters.
I don't know Al Carroll , and in cyber space some skeptism is always a good idea , but from what I can see , I don't have any reason to doubt that Al Carroll is an unenrolled mixed blood person of Apache descent , as he claims .
Re: The United People of the Cherokee Nation
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 09:27:22 AM » educatedindian
Quote
Remember I'm not enrolled either, but I would never call myself "Apache Chief of Band X."
From pictures I have seen , such as the one in the link below , I don't think there is much question that this person is of Native descent . I don't think the person in this photo could pass for anything else .
http://www.americanindianprisoners.com/Pages/Al%20Carroll.htm
In the link below Al Carroll is listed on a university website , as working with other Native people in Native studies and he is said to be Apache .
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:MoU9Pn3GvnMJ:www.asu.edu/clas/history/faculty/bios/iverson.pdf+%22Alton+Carroll%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=
17&gl=ca
Peter Iverson: Abbreviated Curriculum Vitae (emphasis on 2002-2004)
Present Position: Regents’ Professor of History
And Faculty Affiliate in American Indian Studies
New Courses:
Navajo History (an upper division undergraduate course)
Director of Students Completing Ph.D Programs in 2002, 2003, and 2004 (Total: 14)
2004: Julie Davis, Kathy Rolison (Western Cherokee), Alton Carroll (Mescalero
Apache), Elizabeth Carney Sowards, Michael Lawson
You would think Native people in a Native studies program , living within 250 miles of Apache communities , would notice if one of their colleges claiming to be Apache wasn't . One of the first things Native people ask is where your family is from , who you know , and who your relatives are . Someone living many hundreds of miles away from their community , who avoided intellegent people , might be able to claim to be from a tribe they weren't . I guess anything is possible , but I really find it highly unlikely Al could pass himself off as being an unenrolled Apache , when he was living so close to Apache communities , if he wasn't . Especially in a Native studies program . I see no reason to doubt that Al is who he says he is or to suspect him of selfish motives .
John Lekay has also repeatedly suggested that Al might be considered an exploiter of Native culture himself, because he provides information to stop people from exploiting this .
Re: disturbing? Marlon AKA John Lekay
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2007, 11:00:59 AM » Marlon
"
Quote
I can say you making a movie about exploitation about native causes being exploited and then selling this film or a book about this can also be interpreted as doing the exact same thing in another way. "
Quote
"the fact is Al Carroll is selling books, making films and giving seminars in Europe on his own people being exploited by what he refers to as "frauds and plastic shamans" and then questions the motivations of others like Thomas mails or others who write books about his own people could easily be perceived as hypocritical. You can not have one standard for your self and another for everyone else."
Freija explained she had put her life savings into this film , and after expenses no one was any where near making any money on the film or the book .
Re: disturbing? Freija
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2007, 03:29:03 PM »
Quote
"Mr. Carroll gave most of his money from the European tour to Native causes, and the same way he and another 10 Native writers contributed for free to the bookproject - which raised 8000 dollars to Albuquerque Indian Center - the same way it is my deepest hope that this film will bring money to Native people on Pine Ridge and other places. It might take some years before we break even, though. IF we do."
But I see Lekay is totally ignoring this , and again in this article to discredit Al, Lekay is insinuating Al shouldn't be trusted as a source of cultural information because he may claiming to be Apache for selfish monetary intrests .
Quote
"The obvious reasons and motivation for claiming to be of Mescalero Apache origin is usually monetarily driven, promotion of a career, books, seminars, films and donations for websites. Most often, they do this overseas and in Europe where it is close to impossible for people to validate their claims.
Most people would recognize the benefits and realize that this is a great sales pitch to use the name of Geronimo on your bio and to say that you come from the same tribe as one of the bravest warriors that has ever lived. In this day and age, some people will go to great lengths to stand out from the crowd. Whether it's for an audition or selling a book or promoting a film."
I have no reason to believe these defamatory insinuations are true, and I see a lot of evidence to the contrary.
So what if Al put together a book and has helped with a movie that are trying to educate people how to recognize frauds, and some small percentage ( might ?) have gone back to Al to help with some ( but not all ) of his expenses . That Al would even do this is extremely generous of him . I don't see where Al is providing more than the basic type of cultural information provided by hundreds of books published by universities , sociologists and anthropologists .
Beyond advocating basic respect , Al isn't sharing anything resembling Sacred teaching or ceremonies or "Indian wisdom ".
If Al got paid the low wage of $8 an hour , what you are looking at in time put into research and posting on this message board [www.newagefraud.org/smf] alone , represents about $10,000 to $20,000 worth of work . But he doesn't get $8 an hour , he does this for free . And that isn't counting all he does behind the scenes responding to private messages and supporting people who have been violated in ways too painful and private to discuss publicly .
For this he gets constantly personally criticized , threatened and publicly defamed . As far as I can tell , these critisms are coming entirely from exploiters and the non native people who want to be served by them .
The people most commonly targeted by frauds are uninformed non native people , in yet John Lekay claims NAFPS a hate group for trying to make sure these people have enough information to stay safe and make reasonable and responsible choices .
If one person decides not to listen to us , because of your discrediting us and calling NAFPS a hate group , and that person then gets abused by a fraud , they otherwise would have known to have avoided , I hope you will understand your actions have helped to make this abuse possible .
Shame on you, for so childishly trying to discredit us, John Lekay .
----
And from Frederica:
Since his "magazine" promotes ones like Red Elk, who I think is going off the air, and has ties to Harley "Swiftdeer" Regan, Scott Anderson, Mary Thunder and the Crystal Skulls, I think an attack on Al and NAFPS was expected. Conspiracy mongers are as about as bad as the extreme right including the KKK and Neo-Nazis. Function on little fact, mostly bullying and bad information, if any information. And a certain amount of people will buy it, but it is people mostly like themselves. All you have to do is remember how he baited and tried to set up an elder woman in here, until she called him on this, to see how he functions.
frederica
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=a26bd1e57b844c793a9ad99fc614b541&topic=1029.50
From Momma P:
To try and make Al's BQ [blood quantum] or the enrollment he has always been clear he does not have, the main issue , would seem to be nothing more than an effort to divert peoples attention away from the true issues , and to weaken support for the recognized authorities that are selected by Native communities , by weakening support for their supporters.
I don't know Al Carroll , and in cyber space some skeptism is always a good idea , but from what I can see , I don't have any reason to doubt that Al Carroll is an unenrolled mixed blood person of Apache descent , as he claims .
Re: The United People of the Cherokee Nation
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 09:27:22 AM » educatedindian
Quote
Remember I'm not enrolled either, but I would never call myself "Apache Chief of Band X."
From pictures I have seen , such as the one in the link below , I don't think there is much question that this person is of Native descent . I don't think the person in this photo could pass for anything else .
http://www.americanindianprisoners.com/Pages/Al%20Carroll.htm
In the link below Al Carroll is listed on a university website , as working with other Native people in Native studies and he is said to be Apache .
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:MoU9Pn3GvnMJ:www.asu.edu/clas/history/faculty/bios/iverson.pdf+%22Alton+Carroll%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=
17&gl=ca
Peter Iverson: Abbreviated Curriculum Vitae (emphasis on 2002-2004)
Present Position: Regents’ Professor of History
And Faculty Affiliate in American Indian Studies
New Courses:
Navajo History (an upper division undergraduate course)
Director of Students Completing Ph.D Programs in 2002, 2003, and 2004 (Total: 14)
2004: Julie Davis, Kathy Rolison (Western Cherokee), Alton Carroll (Mescalero
Apache), Elizabeth Carney Sowards, Michael Lawson
You would think Native people in a Native studies program , living within 250 miles of Apache communities , would notice if one of their colleges claiming to be Apache wasn't . One of the first things Native people ask is where your family is from , who you know , and who your relatives are . Someone living many hundreds of miles away from their community , who avoided intellegent people , might be able to claim to be from a tribe they weren't . I guess anything is possible , but I really find it highly unlikely Al could pass himself off as being an unenrolled Apache , when he was living so close to Apache communities , if he wasn't . Especially in a Native studies program . I see no reason to doubt that Al is who he says he is or to suspect him of selfish motives .
John Lekay has also repeatedly suggested that Al might be considered an exploiter of Native culture himself, because he provides information to stop people from exploiting this .
Re: disturbing? Marlon AKA John Lekay
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2007, 11:00:59 AM » Marlon
"
Quote
I can say you making a movie about exploitation about native causes being exploited and then selling this film or a book about this can also be interpreted as doing the exact same thing in another way. "
Quote
"the fact is Al Carroll is selling books, making films and giving seminars in Europe on his own people being exploited by what he refers to as "frauds and plastic shamans" and then questions the motivations of others like Thomas mails or others who write books about his own people could easily be perceived as hypocritical. You can not have one standard for your self and another for everyone else."
Freija explained she had put her life savings into this film , and after expenses no one was any where near making any money on the film or the book .
Re: disturbing? Freija
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2007, 03:29:03 PM »
Quote
"Mr. Carroll gave most of his money from the European tour to Native causes, and the same way he and another 10 Native writers contributed for free to the bookproject - which raised 8000 dollars to Albuquerque Indian Center - the same way it is my deepest hope that this film will bring money to Native people on Pine Ridge and other places. It might take some years before we break even, though. IF we do."
But I see Lekay is totally ignoring this , and again in this article to discredit Al, Lekay is insinuating Al shouldn't be trusted as a source of cultural information because he may claiming to be Apache for selfish monetary intrests .
Quote
"The obvious reasons and motivation for claiming to be of Mescalero Apache origin is usually monetarily driven, promotion of a career, books, seminars, films and donations for websites. Most often, they do this overseas and in Europe where it is close to impossible for people to validate their claims.
Most people would recognize the benefits and realize that this is a great sales pitch to use the name of Geronimo on your bio and to say that you come from the same tribe as one of the bravest warriors that has ever lived. In this day and age, some people will go to great lengths to stand out from the crowd. Whether it's for an audition or selling a book or promoting a film."
I have no reason to believe these defamatory insinuations are true, and I see a lot of evidence to the contrary.
So what if Al put together a book and has helped with a movie that are trying to educate people how to recognize frauds, and some small percentage ( might ?) have gone back to Al to help with some ( but not all ) of his expenses . That Al would even do this is extremely generous of him . I don't see where Al is providing more than the basic type of cultural information provided by hundreds of books published by universities , sociologists and anthropologists .
Beyond advocating basic respect , Al isn't sharing anything resembling Sacred teaching or ceremonies or "Indian wisdom ".
If Al got paid the low wage of $8 an hour , what you are looking at in time put into research and posting on this message board [www.newagefraud.org/smf] alone , represents about $10,000 to $20,000 worth of work . But he doesn't get $8 an hour , he does this for free . And that isn't counting all he does behind the scenes responding to private messages and supporting people who have been violated in ways too painful and private to discuss publicly .
For this he gets constantly personally criticized , threatened and publicly defamed . As far as I can tell , these critisms are coming entirely from exploiters and the non native people who want to be served by them .
The people most commonly targeted by frauds are uninformed non native people , in yet John Lekay claims NAFPS a hate group for trying to make sure these people have enough information to stay safe and make reasonable and responsible choices .
If one person decides not to listen to us , because of your discrediting us and calling NAFPS a hate group , and that person then gets abused by a fraud , they otherwise would have known to have avoided , I hope you will understand your actions have helped to make this abuse possible .
Shame on you, for so childishly trying to discredit us, John Lekay .
----
And from Frederica:
Since his "magazine" promotes ones like Red Elk, who I think is going off the air, and has ties to Harley "Swiftdeer" Regan, Scott Anderson, Mary Thunder and the Crystal Skulls, I think an attack on Al and NAFPS was expected. Conspiracy mongers are as about as bad as the extreme right including the KKK and Neo-Nazis. Function on little fact, mostly bullying and bad information, if any information. And a certain amount of people will buy it, but it is people mostly like themselves. All you have to do is remember how he baited and tried to set up an elder woman in here, until she called him on this, to see how he functions.
frederica
posted by Dr. Al Carroll at 7:32 AM
2 Comments:
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Has anyone actually seen Johny boy's rag? It's trash, a cyber version of the Weekly World News pretending to be serious politico spirit lessons. A pompus pretender and a white want-to-be trying to shove his ideas down the throats of the Natives, that's all he is.
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